Talk Policy with PPI is a podcast series of discussions with leading policy experts and policymakers on relevant topics in the news. For this latest episode of Talk Policy, PPI’s Director of Social Policy Veronica Goodman sat down with Dr. Chandra Childers, Study Director at the Institute for Women’s Policy Research. Their discussion focuses on the concept of apprenticeships, it’s benefits for workers, and the historical context on the racial and gender makeup of these job training programs.
The full podcast is available here and below as a transcript. Be sure to check out “Here to Stay: Black, Latina, and Afro-Latina Women in Construction Trades Apprenticeships and Employment,” a paper focusing on how the COVID crisis has put a spotlight on skilled construction trades, and the opportunities it has presented for Black, Latina, and Afro Latina women here. Other episodes of Talk Policy can be found here.
Radically Pragmatic, a PPI Podcast
TALK POLICY: Apprenticeships with Dr. Chandra Childers
Progressive Policy Institute (0:10)
You’re listening to Radically Pragmatic, a podcast from the Progressive Policy Institute. We talk with lawmakers, policy experts and thought leaders about the issues driving the news nationally and internationally. The Progressive Policy Institute is a catalyst for policy innovation and political reform with offices in Washington, D.C. and Brussels. Its mission is to create radically pragmatic ideas for moving America beyond ideological and partisan deadlock. We encourage analytical conversations, not your typical partisan talking points.
Veronica Goodman (0:43)
Hi there, and welcome to Radically Pragmatic, a PPI podcast. My name is Veronica Goodman, and I’m PPI’s Director of Social Policy. For this segment of Talk Policy, I sat down and spoke with Dr. Chandra Childers, Study Director at the Institute for Women’s Policy Research. She’s an expert on social stratification and social and economic inequality by race and sex. Chandra examines issues related to women and girls of color and job quality. Be sure to subscribe wherever you listen and enjoy the episode. Hi, Chandra thank you so much for joining me today to talk about equity and inclusiveness and apprenticeships and job training programs. I’m really looking forward to this discussion.
Dr. Chandra Childers (1:24)
Thank you! Thank you for having me. I’m looking forward to it as well.
Veronica Goodman (1:28)
My pleasure. So, just to start to give listeners a little bit of background, what is an apprenticeship when we’re talking about it?
Dr. Chandra Childers (1:37)
Okay, so I would like to focus specifically on registered apprenticeships because they provide a structured experience for trainees or workers. They are focused on mastering, or ensuring that the worker or the trainee, however we want to refer to them…that they actually master a specific set of skills that the employer is actually needing in his workforce. And they are, these apprenticeships, they’re paid from day one, so you’re being paid to learn the skills that you need. These are…they get regular pay raises as they master the work as they move forward. They receive mentoring, so, these are an excellent opportunity to prepare workers for moving into jobs that are hard to fill. It allows them to earn a living wage so that they’re not going into student debt trying to get a college degree. Yet, they put out some really high quality workers. And I think that apprenticeships are really valuable for those reasons. Also, because they tend to earn…workers who go through apprenticeships tend to earn more. So, according to apprenticeships.gov, over 90% of graduates of apprenticeships have earnings…have average earnings of $70,000 annually, which is, you know, that’s a pretty good living to make. That’s after they’ve graduated. But during their program, they’re paid from the very beginning. And they cover a wide range of industries. So, while most apprenticeships are, for example, in the skilled construction trades, we do find that we have them in everywhere from hospitality, transportation, manufacturing, health care and business. So, there are a range of areas, although the vast majority are in skilled construction trades.
Veronica Goodman (3:33)
That’s really helpful. Thank you. And I think you sort of highlighted that they’re usually in the trades, but they actually exist in a lot of industries. Could you please share a little bit about some of the historical context on the racial and gender makeup of apprenticeships and these programs just to frame the conversation and, you know, maybe what percentages are female and from communities of color? And I know from reading your papers that that’s changing in certain programs and regions, too, which is good.
Dr. Chandra Childers (4:03)
Sure! So, we know that women make up almost half of the workforce. Women are, you know, like 47% of all workers. Yet, it has only been in the last few years that women have actually made up more than 10% of all apprenticeships. So, when we look between 2014 and 2020, I believe the number of women in apprenticeships, again, only reaching now to about 14%…but that’s a 200% increase over just 2014. So, we are seeing a lot of growth. We also see that Black and Latina women in particular are also really underrepresented. But, again, we are also beginning to see improvements in those numbers. So, for Hispanic women…the number of Hispanic women between 2016 and 2019 increased by, again, almost 100%. Their numbers almost doubled. And for Black women, the increase was about almost 50%. So, we are seeing growth. We are beginning to see some changes, yet, these groups are still really underrepresented in the trades. And I think it’s really important to think about the inclusion of members of these groups because it has a number of impacts. One, by excluding…whether it’s women, whether it’s, you know, Black, Hispanic workers, men or women…one of the things that you’re continuing to do is you’re denying these large segments of the population access to earning a living wage or being able to provide for their families. But, you’re also depriving employers, or [they’re] depriving themselves of access to really large pools of talent. So, they’re actually losing out. And one of the things we know is that a lot of the…in the skilled construction trades in particular…a lot of these workers are older. We did a study looking in New Orleans in particular, and there we found that over a quarter of construction workers were 50 or older. These are people who are going to retire, and they’re already struggling to find an adequate number of workers. So, you know, that history of bias and exclusion for women and for workers of color…that is beginning to change, but we do need to see that change at a much faster rate.
Veronica Goodman (6:30)
That’s interesting. I mean, those are huge increases percentage-wise, but still, it’s disappointing to see how low the participation is. So, I guess building off of that, how do you think we can best address these inequities, you know, to sort of strengthen access for these workers?
Dr. Chandra Childers (6:51)
To be able to be more inclusive and to ensure that we get more workers into these apprenticeships, there’s a number of things that can be done. You know, some of them are as simple as going ahead and enforcing, you know, EEO regulations around making sure that things aren’t biased and that people get equal access. But I think that there are other factors, too. For example, we could start apprenticeships in high school. You know, we have lost a lot of the like shop classes and so forth in high school, but by beginning to have schools begin to work with businesses, you can begin to go ahead and get those apprenticeship processes started. But, I think another important piece of that is helping employers to understand how they benefit from taking on apprenticeships. I think apprenticeships can be seen as costly for employers. I think some employers worry about training workers and then having them leave to go work for some other company. But, I think that one of the things we know is that for a good apprenticeship that is preparing workers…it’s preparing them with exactly the skills that that employer needs…and those apprenticeships can definitely pay for themselves throughout the time of the apprenticeship.
So, I think that’s one way to begin to increase the access for some of these communities. But, I mean, I think we could also make other investments, and I’ll probably talk about this a little later, but we know that there are a lot of…well not a lot…but there are some women-only pre-apprenticeship programs that are beginning to bring women into and preparing them to go into apprenticeships. Those are an other areas where we can really invest that could increase access to apprenticeships.
Veronica Goodman (8:51)
That’s great! And I guess, as a follow up question, since you alluded to it, are there any programs out there that you think are getting particularly good results, or that you’re interested in researching further?
Dr. Chandra Childers (9:03)
There’s a few programs…and, of course, I can’t…there’s a couple that I will highlight here. I think one that is really doing…that’s having a really great amount of success…is Morehouse, which is located in Mississippi. They’re not only providing that training for women to prepare them, but they’re also providing women with one of the most important supports that they’ll need, and that’s childcare. And so, we’re seeing, not a lot, but a few of these apprenticeship and pre-apprenticeship programs…they are either providing access to child care for women, or they’re matching women up with resources…because that’s a major barrier for women who are moms, especially with small children, whether it’s in the apprenticeship itself or once they finished working in the trades. The hours, and I’m focused on construction trades – that’s where a lot of the apprenticeships are, where a majority of them are, and that’s also the work that we’ve been doing – but, because of the hours that they work, because of the demands…I mean, going through an apprenticeship, that is a full time job…it’s combining classroom training with on the job training – but you are doing a lot of intensive work. And so, those programs that provide access to childcare and other supports, including transportation – because, again, you’re on job sites that are not necessarily close to your home…they may be constantly moving. So, I think those are important. But, in some of the research that we did with women, some of the programs that women were really the most excited about…they couldn’t talk enough about these programs that introduced them…like they had no idea about their trade. So like Chicago women in the trades, non-traditional employment for women in New York…you’ve got these types of women pre-apprenticeship programs, that are really providing women with information, with training, preparing them for moving into those apprenticeships. And so, those I think are a really great opportunity to, again, increase the representation of women and women of color in particular.
Veronica Goodman (11:28)
I’m glad that you mentioned this information barrier and how these groups are working to address those because I’ve seen a lot of surveys and polling around how a lot of workers are interested in these opportunities, but don’t know exactly how to access them or tap into them in their communities, so that seems like a really key piece. And so President Biden in the White House included proposals in the American Jobs Plan to increase gender and racial equity in workforce development programs. What do you think some of the top priorities should be in achieving that? And how can we make sure that there’s accountability measures in place to make sure we’re getting the outcomes that we’re shooting for?
Dr. Chandra Childers (12:10)
Accountability, that right there…is, I think, enforcing, again, you know, EEO. Having companies set goals and annually reset those goals, not only for hiring and bringing women – Black, Latina women – on, not only hiring, but also, retention. So, once that, you know, really focusing on, have reporting around that, holding them accountable on those numbers…And that retention piece is a really big piece, because when you can retain the women that you’ve hired, then that points to having addressed a lot of the other issues that come up as barriers that women face, especially in the in the trades, when they’re working…you know, sexual harassment, issues like that, that make it difficult for women, when they…especially, because, quite often, they are the only, or one of two women who may be on a job site. So, there are already a lot of issues that they’re dealing with. So, I think that is a really, really important piece of that. It is, you know, setting those goals. It is, you know, have that reporting in place and making sure that there are realistic, you know, we know that we’re not going to have 50/50 women…and that’s not the goal…but to make sure that women are included, that there is no bias, that they are not facing discrimination, that they are not being excluded from those positions.
Veronica Goodman (13:49)
I think that’s exactly right. I think looking through some of your publications, one of the things I especially appreciated was that there were research interviews done with women who were actually in these positions and on these work sites. And it seems like from the ones that were in roles that were surrounded with other women, there was sort of a support structure, sort of a virtuous cycle as there were more women included, then it became a better work environment for everybody. So, I think that this can only build on its success as we got more women and workers of color included.
Dr. Chandra Childers (14:24)
I really, on that point, I don’t think that that can be over-emphasized. That was, you know, again, the sense of isolation…and we, you know, we highlight a number of consequences of that. And being the only woman on a job site, you know, it means that quite often, they don’t have equipment that’s designed for them, that safety equipment may not fit. They may not have a bathroom on site if they’re the only woman. So, there were those issues. But also just that sense of isolation in the interviews. The way they talked about when they went to the first Women Build Nations Conference, where they saw other women and they heard other people who had had their same experience, and they would form groups, too. So, even if they couldn’t have it on their job site, just so that they could only other women who, you know, work in that field to really understand that experience…so I think that cannot be over-emphasized.
Veronica Goodman (15:27)
I agree. And I don’t know if you can hear it on the audio, but there’s a house being built in the neighbor’s yard and the construction noises are just for ambiance. It’s actually funny because there are two women on that crew. And I’ve noticed them and so it’s just all coming full circle here in my office. But I think one of the points that you made earlier…I wanted to dig into that a little bit more…about how women in trades and apprenticeships tend to earn more than in many fields that are that are dominated by female labor. So, if you could please take a moment to discuss like some of the wage differences and what might account for those?
Dr. Chandra Childers (16:10)
So that’s another…again, over all apprenticeships, as I said, they report that over 90% of them are working after they complete their apprentice and they’re earning an average of $70,000 a year. However, the vast majority of those apprenticeships are in the skilled trades. And so that’s kind of the comparison I usually make is, you know, you can take, for example, and I will give you two examples. One, you can think of jobs that don’t require anything beyond the high school education. So, here, I think about a waitress, you know, you make…waiters, waitresses, compared with construction laborers. Now, neither of these jobs require any advanced training, yet, what we see is that the average earnings for waiters and waitresses is $11.42 per hour. And we compare that with construction laborers who earn $18.22 per hour. So, we’re looking at, a serious, you know, what is that, a pretty large wage increase just for being in what is a male-dominated field. And then if we look at, for example, positions that require greater levels of skill. So, for example, here, we can compare librarians with plumbers. So for the librarian position…and I looked at librarians and media collection specialists…that’s a position that requires a master’s degree. Well, if we look at plumbers, pipe fitters, and steamfitters….love these these job titles…if you look at those occupations, they also require about a five year apprenticeship. So, we’re talking about similar levels of training that’s required. However, for the library and media specialists, you’re paying large amounts of money to get the master’s degree to go into that field. And they have earnings of $29.24 per hour whereas plumbers, pipe fitters, and steamfitters are paid $27 per hour. Now, that’s, you know, it’s about $2 less an hour, however, for the plumber and pipe fitter, they are being paid in their apprenticeship from day one on the job and they’re not going into student loan debt, and they have the potential for earnings to increase over the course of their career. So, those are two examples where we can say that apprenticeships…they really do provide…and this is one of the reasons we really are pushing to increase access for women and women, you know, Black and Latina women in particular, is because these are occupations where you’re not going into so much student debt. Yet, the pay is really good. You have really great benefits. And it’s something that you don’t find in a lot of, you know, a lot of the jobs where women are concentrated. You know, I picked out librarians and media collection that requires a master’s degree, but for a lot of female dominated occupations, you know, they’re not requiring that much education, but the pay is terrible, and they don’t have a lot of benefits.
Veronica Goodman (19:43)
I know that child care and early education workers have really been in the news, and I mean, some of those positions actually do require a higher level of education and it doesn’t really quite match up with them where the wages are after getting those degrees or credentials.
Dr. Chandra Childers (19:59)
I think like elementary school teachers and even middle school teachers, they’re paid, you know…the hourly wage is lower than what a plumber makes, yet they are required to have at least a bachelor’s degree. So, you do see that with…you know, there’s a number of occupations you can pull out. And that was something else also that we saw in our interviews, is that several of the women we spoke with, they had bachelor’s degrees that they thought they needed in order to be successful, but then they learned about the trades, and they prefer the trades over their professional jobs, so they left what they were doing to move into the trades, and had better pay and benefits.
Veronica Goodman (20:40)
That’s great. I’d be interested to hear about what sort of next for you and your research and some of these areas.
Dr. Chandra Childers (20:48)
Yes, so, we’ve done the reports looking at women coming out of apprenticeship programs. We’ve done some work in New Orleans, in particular, looking at opportunities to, you know, ways that we can help increase women’s access to the trades. And so that’s some ongoing work…we’re still there, you know…we put out the report, but we’re still there building on that, trying to make connections and build up opportunities with training institutions, with employers, to be able to do some of that work. And the next step in this, again, that will continue, but we also will start looking into manufacturing and, you know, looking to increase women’s access and representation in manufacturing occupations. So, you know, there are a number of book paying jobs, again, in New Orleans jobs at the port, transportation, where, women are really underrepresented, but they’re jobs that pay well. And so we really just want to keep building on trying to increase opportunities for women to move into these well-paying jobs. And also, you know, a big part of that is it will reduce the occupational sex segregation, and that is the largest contributor to the gender wage gap. Closing that gender wage gap, getting women into some of these occupations, can really help to reduce poverty rates for not just women, but children, raise GDP, so it’s got good benefits all around. So, those are kind of some of the next steps that we’re looking at here.
Veronica Goodman (22:34)
That’s wonderful. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me today and talk more about your research. I’m looking forward to seeing how it evolves. And we’ll be sure to link to some of your publications at the end of this for readers that want to take a closer look, but thank you so much.
Dr. Chandra Childers (22:51)
Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.
Veronica Goodman (22:54)
My pleasure.
Progressive Policy Institute (22:57)
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